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in-breeding (Read 11708 times)
Ef_Deal
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By Shadow and by Moonlight!

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in-breeding
Jul 9th, 2008 at 4:46pm
 
As I speak with kennels offering chow pups for sale, I am hearing of breeders mating males to their mothers to bring out the bloodlines.  Is that allowable?  Doesn't in-breeding bring out defects?  I am very skeptical when I see "champion bloodlines, champion sired" when in fact what they're saying is that the sire has his mother's champion blood line.
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Red_Dragon
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #1 - Jul 9th, 2008 at 6:04pm
 
You would have to look at the pedigrees and see who was mated with what relative. Line breeding and inbreeding can be a great tool, but in the wrong hands it can be a disaster, and in fact is the reason the breed has so many problems. If you do not have a superior line of dogs in every aspect, line breeding and inbreeding will bring out the bad just as easily as it does the good. There is no way I would breed tighter than two generations unless the dogs were absolutely perfect in every way, and they had the health records to back it up. You can email me pedigrees anytime you like and I will tell you what I think. One other thing to consider, the Chow in this country is from a somewhat limited gene pool in the show lines, so genetic diversity can also play a major role in whether the dogs may be healthy or not.
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Ef_Deal
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #2 - Jul 9th, 2008 at 6:19pm
 
As I contact the references I'm given, I am hearing that there are no health problems and the dogs are of a very sweet temperament.  But I'd feel better knowing the lines a few generations back and seeing that there isn't a lot of the in-breeding.

One of the pups I was interested in, the owner said was so sweet that she was hoping no one wanted to buy her so she could keep her, but it occurred to me that meant she would keep her to breed with her own sire, and I had to wonder how frequently she did it!
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Lynne
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #3 - Jul 9th, 2008 at 6:26pm
 
Hi Ef,

Yes I know in America inbreeding is "almost" normal.
In Holland it is NOT done, it is forbidden to breed brothers
with sisters,parents with children and also halfbrother and
sister. I know many years ago some breeders here did
once an inbreeding to fasten some very good things of
their Chows. They kept the pup and when she was old
enough the breeder did an outcross, so no relationship at all.
With inbreeding you can have a beautiful in and exterior,but
also all the bad things from 2 sides.
By the way a bitch can have 5 times a litter in her life and
2 times the same conbination, bitch/dog. Dutch rules.

Greetings from Ted and a Kissfrom Lynne,a lovely healthy
red outcross Grin
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leisa75
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #4 - Jul 9th, 2008 at 9:03pm
 
I have heared of a grandson sire, to its grandmother? I thought it was odd. But i dont know much about breeding. To me a dog should not be bred with a relative, humans dont why should they?
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Shane
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #5 - Jul 9th, 2008 at 11:58pm
 
In breeding has its benefits, but just like Red Dragon said in the wrong hands it can be a disaster. Just like what ended up with the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. In the breed highest point of popularity, breeders inbred these dogs to make up for the high demands for which they were being seeked. The breeders had caused a serious decrease in the life span.

Inbreeding like you says causes bad traits to come forward very qicly, however inbreeding also bring the best features forward and cause the breeders to reach consistency rather quickly. However if they are breeding, a breeder MUST make make sure that all nesseccary health checks are done as to prevent unwanted traits. Remember that it takes 1 reccessive of the same gene from 2 individuals to cause a geneto become dominant. So a mother and a son would most definately share the same genes (the son would carry half of her genes and half of it's father's).

in my opinion there is nothing worng with it just aslong the breeder take all precaustions before they even they bred that the two.

Shane
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Do you own your Chow Chow or does your Chows own you. Who serves who?
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Red_Dragon
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #6 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 2:01am
 
Be careful EF, there are all kinds of ploys breeders have to get people to buy a dog, they will lie to you in a heartbeat too. Just stick to the basics and ask for proof of everything.
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ChrismaChows
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #7 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 2:33am
 
Breeding is a crap shoot... You can breed with the best of intentions and have all health tests done and breed a litter of dysplastic pups...Or a litter with entropian when parents dont carry it...
Breeders who breed with the best of intentions still end up with lemon litters, and you can never breed a perfect dog..
As a breeder you have to pick the faults you can live with producing, as there is no perfect pair of chows to breed from, and if there were would Red Dragon, Peter, Ted, and others all agree it was a perfect chow? Probably not, for no one has the same ideal of what a perfect chow should be.. I like a smaller more compact chow, with clean clear eyes that moves correctly, and has a rough coat.. Peter likes a taller more open faced chow, Ect... Ect.. Get the pic...
Now, inbreeding.. Been there, done that... Look at Sophies pedigree, she is the result of a mother to son breeding... If I could repeat the breeding would I?  Damn Right I would.. She is one of the nicest moving, squarest bitches I have ever laid eyes on. My only faulting her is she is too small... Whenever you inbreed or line breed you lose size.
You never want to inbreed more than once, then go to an outcross.
In Breeding and Line Breeding will bring out all of the bad... And All of the good traits... You have to know your bloodlins and know what problems you are going to be facing and be willing to deal with what curve balls mother nature throws at you.
When I bred Sophie to Kazoo that was tightly line bred. The pups all did what I hoped.. They got more leg then there mom, they have there moms goofyness, unfortunatley they have Kazoo's coat, Its thick and woolley where as the mom has a shorter easier coat to deal with. 2 of the pups got Sophies movement, the other two paddle like there dad... I wont repeat the breeding, as the paddling was passed, and Kazoo will get one breeding and depending on if I like what he produces he may lose his family jewels.
As a breeder its what I must face and do.. I dont want to create pups that are below the chow standard.
I want them to be the chow standard or as closely to it..
EF, always ask for health certs or have them scanned and sent to you. You can check hips and eyes online, if you need help just ask me... If something sounds tooo good to be, it probably is...
If you are able, visit the breeder and the parents of the pups... Make sure you can pet the parents and the breeder doesnt have to hog tie them in order for you to pet them..
Make sure the pups dont have coughs, watery eyes, runny poop stuck to there bum.. Use common sense, and dont just fall head over heels for the fluffy butt or that first sweet blue kiss...
Take Care,
Sherrie
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Sherrie L. Determan
Chrisma Chow Chows
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Lynne
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #8 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 9:30am
 
Hi Sherrie,

That's excact what I said, in former days breeders here
did once an inbreeding and then an outcross. But now it
is not allowed anymore
We had an old Dutch Chow Judge and he always said :
If you want a perfect Chow, just buy 2 kilo's of clay and
make it yourself Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Cool Roll Eyes
And what is a good Chow, again in my eyes a healthy one
in the first place. 90 % of the buyers never go to a show.

Greetings from  Ted
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Lynne
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #9 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 10:53am
 
And so I did, but if they are perfect, hm Wink Grin Ted




img413.imageshack.us/img413/8257/selfmadechowsnt2.jpg
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Ef_Deal
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By Shadow and by Moonlight!

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Re: in-breeding
Reply #10 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 3:36pm
 
Lynne wrote on Jul 10th, 2008 at 10:53am:
And so I did, but if they are perfect, hm Wink Grin Ted




img413.imageshack.us/img413/8257/selfmadechowsnt2.jpg



I am laughing so loud Shadow had to come see what was up!

I've taken to heart all of your advice, believe me.   But as I said, visiting the breeder would have been an expense I could not make, both in time and money.

I decided to buy a cream girl from Heavenly Pets Place.  The breeder's references all checked out, and recommendations were high.  I asked about in-breeding, and he said he has only in-bred twice to bring out shape and temperament, and has never had an instance of entropion or dysplasia.  However, he said exactly what you said, Chrisma--and I should let him know if there is any health problem with the pup.   His breeding stock includes several champions.  My little girl's great grandparents were both champions, as the pedigree will certify once I receive it--I have his assurance.  And yes, I take this with a grain of salt, but if the pedigree doesn't indicate her bloodlines are good, I will pursue it.  Yet, I have a good feeling about this breeder.

My little girl arrives tonight via Continental.  You can look for her picture here tomorrow.  We haven't yet picked a name--we're waiting for her personality to tell us what it is.
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Ef
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Ef_Deal
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #11 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 3:37pm
 
ChrismaChows wrote on Jul 10th, 2008 at 2:33am:
EF, always ask for health certs or have them scanned and sent to you. You can check hips and eyes online, if you need help just ask me... If something sounds tooo good to be, it probably is...



I am curious -- how can you check hips and eyes online?
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Ef
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FNG303
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #12 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 5:21pm
 
Congrats on your new puppy.
I would prefer a champion-less bloodline rather than one
with champ bloodline but with mother and son inbreeding.
Even a non-pedigreed dog would be better.


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Lynne
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #13 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 6:18pm
 
Hi Ef,

If a Chow has a pedegree in Holland the results of HD X rays
are mentioned behind every parent, grandparent and great
grandparent. I am sure it is the same in your country.

In Europe it's called HD A B C D, in America OFA..................

To be sure about eyes is very difficult, there are operations so
perfect, you cannot see anything afterall. The only thing you can
do is trust the breeder, but ?????????????????????????????????
And I don't agree, if you buy a Chow without a pedegree, you
have no information at all.

I really hope you found a healthy creme girl, I looked at the
webside, but did not find pedegrees.

Greetings and good luck from Ted
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Ef_Deal
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Re: in-breeding
Reply #14 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 6:30pm
 
The papers are being sent by mail.  As soon as I get them, I'll talk to you about them.
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Ef
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